My compliments to Bill. I know only one man like he: my tai chi teacher and now friend. The first time it became clear was when he called me up to go for coffee; his main purpose, as he stated, was to check in on our relationship and made sure that it was ok and going satisfactorily for me as well. You could have knocked me over with the proverbial feather.

Good luck, Bill. It's delightful to know you are out there and I do believe there are others of your ilk. Keep looking...and perhaps, look in different places.

Annie has a good point. maybe becoming a joiner is what you have to do. Ronni, I'm not sure that young men have any more of a lock on the engaging-friendship-with-meaningful-sharing kind of thing than us older guys. Guys are guys.

I kind of identified with Bill's dilemma and posted about it on my blog. My conclusion there was, I hope Ronni’s friend Bill finds his way toward developing some rewarding mature male friendships. For me, I think it all might start with the command from some internal cop: “Sir. Step away from the keyboard.”

I think it goes back to biology. Men were supposed to be warriors and protectors...so sharing ones most intimate and silly thoughts does not come naturally as it makes the warrior vulnerable. Women had to depend on each other more as animals for survival and sharing comes naturally to us.

Thanks for the link, Ronni!

This is such a fascinating subject. It reminds me of the book, Self Made Man, by Norah Vincent. She is the journalist who lived undercover as a man for some time in order to discover what it is like to be male in our culture. Much of what she reported back dealt with this very issue. She found that while men have a very real desire to connect with other men on a deep and meaningful level, social and cultural norms make this almost impossible to do. Part of this she attributed to a thoroughly ingrained sense of homophobia among men in our culture (after all, these types of deep and meaningful friendships between gay men are not uncommon), and also to the way men are taught to communicate.

Ronni, you mention that this trend may be different for younger men. I don't know if this is always true. I am thinking of my younger twin brothers, who are in their mid-twenties. Despite the fact that they are both emotionally healthy and sensitive young men...despite the fact that they are twins and have a very close and loving bond...I am still continually amazed by how little they openly communicate with each other about personal and emotional issues. On that level they each usually talk to me, their sister, but even then I am usually the one who has to initiate those type of conversations. And once the conversations are started, my role is often as an emotional guide...giving them leads and nudges to express what they are feeling, but not always skilled at putting into words.

I would love to hear what different men have to say on this subject. It's ironic that the way to change the status quo is often to start communicating openly about the thing that is the problem...but in this case communicating openly is at the very heart of the problem! Kudos to Bill for getting this important conversation started.

Could it be that men compete and women cooperate? Years ago I read a book by Deborah Tannen about how people communicate and she found that from an early age these gender traits (competition/cooperation) were obvious. Gladys

My father retire early to his farvourite place earth. He used to hook up on his short wave radio with a few fellows every evening just before the sun set. I remember hearing a thousand conversations of no consequence at all; weather, motor problems, plans to go for a sail, no topic was insignificant enough for these guys. Yet, when he was off on a boat delivery or a long distant sail in far away spots on the oceans, those daily bits of contact meant everything to my father, his family, and the fellows themselves. They were sharing my father's adventures with him from the comfort of their dens. Their conversations were, on the surface, not particularly intimate, but the friendships were deep.

I've developed what I considered close friendships with other men a half-dozen times over the years. In every case, the "friend" betrayed me to some extent, and became an ex-friend. In no case did we ever discuss intimate matters, and I know of no men (at least non-gay men) we do that with their friends.

What's the problem? If a man has a burning desire to bare his soul about something he can go to his religious counselor, shrink, wife, or girlfriend.

Finding groups in which to share male companionship is another matter. That is hard to do, but the advice of several who commented is right on--get off your butt and start searching for groups you want to join.

Here's a perspective I see is not here already (and I didn't expect it to be). I'm 64. I spent my working life at the Peace Corps, by and large the most progressive--and non-sexist--environment you'll find among the federal agencies in Washington. I'm also a gay man, partnered for 32 years.

A year ago, we picked up roots from our lifelong home in Arlington, Virginia, and moved to rural Northeastern North Carolina. We're in an enclave of self-constructed waterfront homes. Our new neighbors are as nice as the day is long and have welcomed my partner and me unconditionally, with open arms. They are mostly of our age and financial situation (but it is not a "retirement community").

Being social with this group turned out to be the first time since we were in high school that we encountered this strict male-female division of which you speak. When we get together, the husbands amble off to one corner, the wives to another, and they spend their time at a party separated from each other. We were floored. Speaking for myself, having spent my working life in an atmosphere where people simply got along irrespective of gender, and my social life either among other gay men or like-minded and similarly socialized straights, I am still feeling my way, learning how best to interact in this "new normal." My partner is a real handyman and does more "man" things than I do, so hanging out with the guys comes more naturally to him. I can do some of those things, too, but am learning that I'm more attuned to what I've learned are "womanly" pursuits--talking about things other than construction techniques and machines. (Thought I admit getting too far down in the weeds about relationships can start to feel icky.)

Just by being here, we are teaching our neighbors new ways of interacting, as they are us. We think our way is much better--we like all of them, all mixed up together. Who knows? We may get the guys here to graduate from high school yet!

This is beginning to sound like Men are from Mars Women from Venus with the men heading to their cave and the women to their circle. It seems to me that what we need is what we should seek out. Men who don't need a circle, shouldn't feel compelled to find one; but those who do want one, can realize there are men out there like themselves where they want to discuss things beyond the weather and how many fish they caught. It's not wrong to want to talk with others about issues beyond the football scores-- nor is it wrong to find that is all you want.

When I was in the local, country church, I ran into the above mentioned division of the sexes and my problem was I preferred the conversation of the men which leaned toward politics or spiritual arguments in that particular church. The women talked crafts and since I was not a craft type person, I only could listen without really having much to contribute. It was though a social environment and nobody was going to get into something too deep.

I think Bill is aspiring to the unachievable: male friendships just don't develop that way. We don't open up to another man unless he's a health or religious professional of some sort. It comes from our upbringing: displaying one's feelings or emotions is somehow "unmanly," if not a sign of latent gayness. Women, on the other hand, are not only encouraged in their femininity, they seem to appreciate it more as they mature, both in themselves and in their friends. I often see older women out together, happily chattering about this and that and obviously enjoying each other's company, while many men of that age (if they're out at all) seem to sit around looking bored or grumpy, trying at best to make small talk, if anything. I realize young girls do not have an easy time of it as they are growing up; but Venus seems to be a much nicer place later on, while Mars is definitely No Country For Old Men.

Bill has a major problem, which he should not ignore, but it is resolvable: he doesn't seem to have many strong interests, and that makes him uninteresting. He may be a very nice person, but he doesn't sound like somone most guys would seek out as a friend. What would they have in common? But as others have noted, he has to take control of his own life by using what interests he has to meet people. A book club was suggested. How about a gardening club? he might consider politics: not running for office, but doing volunteer work of some sort for a party or candidate he agrees with. I have worked in several campaigns, and met quite a few interesting people of both sexes, young and old.

But deep relationships are not likely to develop in any case: it's just not in the nature of the male beast.

I'm inclined to think that the Mars/Venus thing is overrated. I think it has more to do with individual differences: introvert/extrovert, self-confidence, charisma, and shared *something*, whether it's a past (small p!), kids, parents, neighborhood, politics, whatever. I see men who are close to other men; they just don't Talk About Their Feelings. But they're there for each other, even if the "there" is a night shooting pool instead of offering sympathy. I don't see why the definition of warm & intimate friendship has to be "talks about everything."

Ronnie,
You and Bill have unleashed lots of opinions and interesting experiences..what could be a better use of our connection to the web? Thanks to both of you. Gladys

Places where guys talk, as reported by my husband, who says he has personally experienced only a couple of these:

Golf courses
AA
Fishing or hunting trips
Bowling alleys

It seems that their emails tend toward dates, times, and flight numbers or dopey jokes and pictures of people and animals looking foolish.

I wish I could give tons of anecdotal evidence to disprove the Mars/Venus thing, because it was perpetrated by a Moonie pseudo-scientific pseudo-professional, but my in-house expert is not doing much to further that goal. But, then, he wouldn't, would he?

Ronni, I can relate to Bill's problem. My best friend and I rarely see each other these days because we no longer work together and we no longer play golf together. For many men in their 50s, 60s and 70s the golf course and it's related society is a last bastion of male companionship. You get to know someone pretty well after many hours on the links over the years.

Now that neither of us play or work together our meetings are far and few between. I just recently found out he had been gravely ill for a month and was only notified after the fact.

I think Bill's plight is the norm and not the exception.

This to my mind is just another symptom of the change in culture and its effects on our generation.

Rich

A number of women here have mentioned having good friendships with men, and that's just fine. I have those too and I treasure them. Although there are some men who are not able to reveal their more personal thoughts and feelings to any woman, even to their wives, I believe that the majority can and do, albeit with a little cajoling at times. (Especially if the women in their lives understand and respect that Martian need to duck into the cave when necessary.)
But Bill's whole point, surely, is how can men find other men to do this with, especially if they are introverts and not interested in all those 'male' pursuits?
As a psychotherapist (now retired) who heard this plea from many, many men over the years, I can assure you that it is an iceberg-shaped issue with a lot of hidden pain and longing. Our Western culture, especially in the US, is very hard for introverts of both sexes but hardest of all for men and boys.
I actually think the challenge we are speaking of here is part of an important step in evolution that Homo sapiens is currently on the threshold of, but that's another subject for another day...

One way to find friends of any gender is to join a Learning in Retirement group. Frequently affiliated with a college or university, some are simply peer groups who share knowledge and interests. The one I am involved with, Center for Learning in Retirement (San Francisco) is a lively group composed of people who read, study, and enjoy others who also have inquiring minds. A recent newsletter
http://clirsf.org/august2010_voice.pdf
will give you examples of what interests such groups. (Truth in advertising, I am the volunteer who, with others, compiles and edits The CLIR Voice)

A Google search for "Learning in Retirement" will give you leads on such groups in areas around the USA.

Hi Ronnie,
It is pleasant to remember our last visit.

Part 1
I've been thinking about what I could say about Bill's posting. Yes, I do relate to his comment and generally agree. Mary Jamison mentioned a few individual differences.
I've always been a loner, perhaps partly because my father died when I was five. I've had serious, and somewhat prevailing, problems getting in touch with my feelings and especially found difficulty expressing my feelings in words. I've tried to turn my aggressiveness and buried anger into assertiveness and have made significant steps, largely due to the love, acceptance and guidance of my loving wife.

What can I say on this subject? I have to deal with it obliquely because my wife meets almost all of my intimacy needs. Perhaps typically, I have very few close male friends and there is only one other male in my life that I can talk about deep feelings and that I can say what I feel without embarrassment. We don't talk often, but we both really enjoy the sharing and "catching up" with each other about where we are emotionally, what has captured our interest recently and our changing feelings about ourselves and how we relate to the world. We don't meet regularly and it is usually I who make the contact. That's the way my friend wants it and I accept.

What works for me? Well, there are two situations that I can relate. One, I play euchre in a euchre league. There are mostly men and over the last 11 years, I see them as acquaintances but note that there are some intimate conversations, not often, but there from time to time with others who have know each other all their lives. Our games are competitive, but balanced in that it is considered inexcusable for anyone to have hard feelings when they lose. It is a very safe outlet for aggression. We talk about the lay of the cards similarly to those who would talk about "the Mets"

Two, I play and rehearse twice a week in a local brass band. There is something very intimate about playing music with others, both males and females. I can't explain it in words, but I feel intimate with the males that I rehearse and do performances with. And, I do feel the intimacy is reciprocal. I think that we do share our feelings when we play together. I am also of the opinion that artistic expression is a clearer channel for emotional expression. We talk, talk, talk and often words just cannot capture a lot of what we want to express.

Now, do we talk about our feelings in either of those situations, generally no.
As a loner and with my wife as lover, mentor and soul mate, as I said above, I just don't feel the need for male intimate relationships.

Actually, I often just do express my feelings in words to my acquaintances and don't mind when they don't respond. Now, this may be quite narcissistic. Be that as it may.

In Deborah Tannen's book about conversation differences between men and women, this passage stuck with me: "Women communicate for connection. men communicate for level." So, competition between men is usually there and often a hindrance. Plus, we men have been socialized to do or fix stuff and the conversational pattern (habit) from teenage years focused on that.

As I have gotten older (I am 55), I worry less about the gender of my friends; and focus more on the quality of my friendships. Knuckleheads are knuckleheads, regardless of the gender.

Life is too short to be unhappy. Play the hand you are dealt. Be friends with those you have met, trust, share interest, and who make the effort to return the friendship. A few high-quality friendships regardless of gender is more satisfying than trying to force friendships with men.

George

Jesus! What a long list! I only read about a fourth of it.

I worked for 40 years with just men, some of the same guys. Hardly any women in Engineering. We retired and have kept in touch only briefly. Now all I am exposed to is women. My wife, daughter, doctor, dentist, yoga teacher, yada-yada-yada, they all are women. It's nice.

The only thing I miss about working with and being around men all day is being accused of having a small penis.

Playing tennis I met a good bunch of guys and some women. I broke my foot, don't play anymore, and lost that bunch of good guys. My B-inLaw played golf for years with the same bunch of men, and when he died his wife wondered why the men didn't call anymore? Seems natural to me. No harm No foul.

How do guys bond? Here's my experience: We bond with lust, lust for women that is. I have never been with a man more than 15 minutes where he didn't comment on some passing female's physical attributes. This is universal because it's also true in Europe where I have worked and also in Japan where I have lived.

Also, American men bond with, uh, off-color? jokes. Sadly, many of which would be offensive to women, rightly so. I ain't makin' any judgments here. It's just the way it is. It's also true no matter how old we are, i.e., we still have the software for this bonding even tho' the hardware may not work the way it used to.

And, yes, even the born again Christians participate. Mormons too!

Vernon Jordan when asked what he and Bill Clinton talked about, he answered truthfully, "Pussy." I'll bet that got him more votes than the women votes he lost.

I had a friend in HS that after HS we went really different paths. We reunited after a 50 year hiatus, and had a great friendship for the next 12 years or so being in some sort of contact every week when he died suddenly. I miss him every day and he has been gone about a year. I think I will miss him forever.

I call that "life happening." I work on trying to get used to it.

I heard in a movie once, paraphrasing,
"Life is filled with many moments of joy and a few of unbearable sadness. It's probably best not to tell the children that."

Semper Fi!

jjhjr