Pension Theft
The Pleasures of Comfort Food

Sometimes Elders Trouble Me

Every election year, I am puzzled, and troubled too, that “my tribe” - elders – reliably votes in large numbers against its own best interests, electing Republican politicians who, almost to a person, want to cut Social Security and Medicare.

Enough elders vote the GOP party ticket that it can't be just the obscenely rich oligarchy. Many old people of moderate and modest means apparently are willing to lose their Social Security and Medicare benefits even though they bought it for themselves by paying into the system all their working lives.

Certainly there are times when sacrifice for the greater good is important but we would have heard about it if that were what's going on with these voters. Are they ignorant or do they really identify with the wealthy as some people tell me or are they just stupid?

It is a painful mystery and now there is another issue where elders grieve me.

Last week, from 11-14 December, The Pew Research Center polled 1001 Americans about the Torture Report right after it was released by Congress. Specifically, respondents were asked if they believe CIA “interrogation methods” (ahem – that would be “torture” according to a number of international agreements the U.S. is signatory to) were justified.

Astonishingly (to me), the country overall is divided right down the middle: 51 percent answered yes. Here's the chart (DK means don't know):

TortureJustified

Of course, the numbers are different when the survey is broken down into demographic units. I wasn't surprised to read that men more than women believe torture is justified; that whites more than blacks or Hispanics do so; Republicans more than Democrats; those with less education than those with more.

But then there is this: People aged 50 to 64 and those 65 and older believe torture to be justified by 59 percent and 62 percent respectively. Now that surprised me. And it distresses me.

Here is the chart:

TortureSurveyAge

I am left speechless and have no way to understand.


At The Elder Storytelling Place today, Arlene Corwin: The Synapse Murders

Comments

Ronni:

Anyone who has watched part of a congressional session on C-Span knows that torture is unjustified.

It is, indeed, very depressing and very confusing. None of the people I consider friends would have said it was justified, nor would very many of the people I know where my 92-year-old mother lives. Is it a question of disinformation, misinformation or lack of information? Or our, i.e. the world's, minds just closing?

I would say 24 hour FOX news works--

Is it because they (we) are of the generation where we believed what we read in the newspapers or saw in the "news" on TV. And if they happen to believe that Fox is the news........

I agree-it's Fox News. Whenever I discuss current events with my (mostly) male relatives, their arguments are always based on "facts" they heard from Fox commentators.

Does Fox really wield that much power? That is even more unsettling than the national disagreement over torture. On the other hand, it would explain far more than just the disagreement over torture.

Yes, Cam, Fox DOES wield that that much power. All you have to do is watch it, then go to a site where you can debate current events and you'll see the Fox propaganda parroted.

Even so, I'm so shocked (and disappointed) that so many people think torture is okay---so long as we're the ones doing it. But all that torture program did is make us lose our moral authority in the world to call other countries out when they mistreat prisoners or their own citizens. Where is the outrage that we spent 80 million dollars to two guys do design the torture program and then teach it to 100 guys to carry out? Republicans bitch about spending every dime on programs for our poor but 80 million for torture? It drives me crazy!

Fear and ignorance still factor in with elders, fear having more influence on how we think than ignorance.

Here's an informative article by Mike Shedlock that answers the fear and ignorance concerns many have about our government's use of torture, especially the beliefs that torture gets results and that a "ticking time bomb" scenario is likely.


Napoleon vs. Cheney: "Interrogation That Actually Works"; Icing on the "Hate-Cake"

It is indeed troublesome. But if we're going to blame Fox news, then we must also ask the question "Why do so many elders apparently choose to watch Fox news?"

Consider the possibility that most people in our country are programmed to "believe" from childhood, grow up within some religious framework, and teach their children the same "beliefs".

Very few, including me have been programmed to research until you know what is and is not true!

Our Government, our funds, and just about every organization affirms a "belief" in a deity....

Although some family members did the church on Sunday and
holidays, when I asked why we did not go to church I was told to go with my friends, if I wanted church in my life.

Later I began to question the meaning of the word, "Believe"...

The result was, and is, that when an individual has researched enough to actually "know"....

"Belief" becomes irrelevant.

Like leaves on trees, we are ALL individuals, there are no two alike in every respect. We are NOT all thinkers and doers!

Each person, with a few exceptions, does have the
ability to question the reality in which s/he exists.

It is never too late to questions. When reality is questined change happens!!!

Really? The election wasn't a clue?

I'm with Jean...80 million for a torture program? That's obscene. I really think some comparison shopping should have been done before that money was plunked down. Any of us could have done better for a tidy million:

1. Take away toilet paper.
2. Feed them nothing but MacDonald's breakfast sandwiches.
3. Fels Naptha for bathing.
4. No blankets when it's cold.
5. Hip-hop or polka music played 12 hours a day.

Never mind, I just remembered that's how many of our homeless live and without a roof to keep them dry.

Low self-worth often leads to finding an "other" to hate, mistrust, fear, oppress, etc. Something about raising one's self-esteem by devaluing the worth of another partly explains this syndrome. Further, most of us learn our values, ethics (or lack), biases, bigotries from parents, teachers, clergy, pols, talking heads, celebs, etc., who are not all enlightened or evolved. Takes enormous strength to question these authorities and many resources (time, money, discipline) to check "facts" (lies) against research, reality, and minority opinion findings. Are we not mostly sheep? With the odd "black" sheep often battered, rammed, maligned, flunked, fired, killed, imprisoned, crucified, assassinated? It's a miracle We the People behave at all and sometimes follow our better instincts to treat ourselves and all others justly and compassionately.

Your post is timely, Ronni. I share your thoughts, questions, and instincts.

I don't understand either. It pains me to know that my own mother, who is trying to live on about $850 a month from SS, plus what I can send her, voted Republican so her SS, etc., can be reduced. She isn't senile, by any means, but she is so Victorian and old-fashioned that she won't vote for anyone who advocates anything like legalized pot, same-sex marriage, abortion, etc. That leaves the Repugs, who want to reduce her income!! Beats me.

Your have such intelligent readers Ronni and all of the above comments prove it.

I agree with all of the above. Throw in the study of how brains work and you find that some people are just programmed to think conservative, then add the fact that elders grew up and were influenced by a generation of very religious mentors and it becomes obvious that the majority of people never change.

When I was a child the culture was one of great patriotism, religion and acceptance that what their elders said was right.

Some elders never questioned that indoctrination and kept a closed mind all of their lives. Add racism, homophobia and all other prejudices to the early training and it's obvious that over half of any group will retain those biases to their death.

It is most disheartening to discover that some people are simply incapable of thinking for themselves - ever.

Humans are pretty complex, regardless of age and political affiliation, and being abandoned or shunned by the tribe may be the most frightening of all our primal fears. Diverging from the beliefs and practices of one's tribe, then, is often more than many can even allow themselves to consider, despite what our teenage years seem to suggest.

As we age, our sometimes limited and dwindling resources may leave us feeling fearful and insecure about the future, and we focus on scarcity. It's not difficult to understand how easily the 'dog in the manger' attitude may slip in, without someone's awareness or admission, if we see the pie as limited.

Paradoxically, it seems that the more someone has, the more difficult it often becomes for him/her to embrace the idea of what the Quakers call 'right sharing of resources,' and adopt the view that everyone can have enough if everyone makes that a priority. But we tend to be myopic, and can't see that when those who have an inordinate amount already focus only on getting even more, there can be no good long term outcome. The comments posted yesterday about Hedrick Smith's book, "Who Stole the American Dream" and stakeholder capitalism versus shareholder capitalism were very insightful; perhaps prophetic might be a better word.

One piece I don't see in your figures, Ronni, yet I just saw this morning and which makes me cringe even more, is that so-called Christians approve of torture more so than those who call themselves non-Christians. That really disturbs me.

I was appalled. Torture is never justified. Then again, no one asked me.

I agree with all the above. When I see on the news (PBS, not Fox!) that some study shows that "Seniors" form x percent of those favoring torture or rejecting gay marriage, etc. I want to throw my shoe at the TV and say "Not all of us!"

I cannot forget that spacey old woman in a red dress who said she's afraid of Obama because he's a Muslim.

Fox has a self-righteous, us against them mentality which must appeal to a lot of people.

I'm heartened to read the comments posted here.

Caveat Emptor! I would like to know who commissioned this report -- meaning who paid for this poll to be taken -- the CIA? Makes a nice news story to support the CIA's torture measures for sure. Most polls are biased and corrupted.

Great post and equally great comments! Fortunately, some of us elders CAN and DO still think, and we probably never watch Fox "News". I am appalled that so many of my contemporaries seem to believe that torture is the way to go, and I agree that it often has to do with one's "belief system". I turned non-religious at about age 17 when I began to recognize the sheer hypocrisy practiced by so many "Christians". What better example of living Christianity than being PRO-torture?!

And what about those "Prosperity Preachers" who tell the 1%, "You DESERVE more!" while backing Republican politicians who will guarantee continued tax breaks for their mega-churches, with perhaps a dribble of charity for the poor (tax-deductible, of course). It's beyond disgusting!

I understand being concerned about limited resources. I just lost my job of 40 years, which means that our retirement has just become more "limited" than it was. However, there are many elders (and younger people as well) who are worse off than we are, and although I can no longer share as much, I will still share (and I'm not even a Christian).

I also am appalled by the statistics on age and approval of torture. Studying biology as a student decades ago reinforced my respect for the life of all creatures.

I can't even kill bugs which get into my house and find a way to release them outside.


I also question the poll, particularly the timing with the report release and Cheney's hard, cruel stance.
I don't believe the poll reveals truth; rather, it forms a questionable estimate. And all of this day's entries raise troubling thoughts. But at least we're thinking, and more importantly, questioning and trying to understand how people can find torture valid.

Christianity put forth 7 deadly sins, but I think the worst to have is 'ignorance.' Not in a bookish way but more of a bullish, fear-fueled, blinders-on form. Besides, the other 7 all form out of ignorance.

I also know many my age who vote Republican for major offices. They feel the financial gains from the Republican actions are greater for them than future government benefits. They are selfish and short-sighted.

Today's essay and comments take me far beyond the initial issue. I will read them more thoroughly and thoughtfully tonight. Looking forward to it.

I don't understand it either - at times I feel like I have entered into some strange parallel universe where nothing makes sense anymore.

I fear for the future in general, and for myself embarking upon retirement. I fear for my modest pension, which I paid into for years as a public school teacher. We have just elected a governor in Nebraska who is eyeing the public retirement system funds, as well as our general fund. We have apparently learned nothing from our neighbor to the south.

On torture: this blog post forced me to actually read some of the details of the CIA report, which I have assiduously avoided. The very concept of torture makes me ashamed of being a member of the human species.

Willful ignorance is the most deadly of the eight deadly sins. Most.of those who said they thought that torture was justified are guilty of willfull ignorance.

Before this day ends, I must give a big shout-out while dancing the jig on a picnic table - to our President - for freeing the Cuban people from our sanctioned, sanitized, semi-civilized idea of neighborly torture!

And I hope you've got your cleats firmly on, because it looks like you've just stolen second base on your trip
home. Bravo.

It is discouraging to contemplate how many people do vote against their own interests. As far as the elders are concerned I have a theory of my own. As we age, many of us lose our identity. Our jobs are gone, our children are gone, our acuity is diminishing; our bodies are breaking down. All this combined results in a crisis of confidence. We are vulnerable and afraid. We are no longer strong and vital. Fear leads to people grasping frantically all that is familiar and safe. It leads us to cower in our homes, to support "stand your own ground" laws, to crave what used to be and to approve of -yes- torture if that will deliver a feeling of security. It is all based on fear of those "others" out there who we believe want what we have or want to hurt us in our diminished state.

I live in Florida now. It's all I can do to read the local newspapers! I can't bear to listen to one more person say "whatever it takes to prevent another 9/11 is OK." They totally ignore the fact that torture doesn't work.

I despair.

What a treat to have this blog in my life. I can't
agree more with what has been said here today.

Thank you each for your words. There is some comfort in knowing others are awake, aware.


What joy it is to read all these thoughtful posts!

This is one of the TGB posts
with comments that I will file in my computer to read again and again, especially if or when I feel the need to have some confirmation!!!!

Thank you, All of you, and Ronni for all that has been
shared here!!!!

Keep on keepin on! Be All You Are, each and everyone of you!!!!

I shall end my day with an extra glass of wine to celebrate my joy!

I certainly felt for all thinking Americans when the results of that poll were published - horrific results - I just wondered what the results would have been if it had been held here in Australia - possibly exactly the same - the result of media engendered fear - lack of education - lack of thought - basically lack of empathy or compassion - a sad indictment of our 'civilised' world.

There's a lot of meanness and self righteousness underneath the veneer of niceness.

Polls. Have you ever been polled? Don't you wish you knew whom they polled? None of my friends have ever been polled. Decades of living and we are all apparently "off the poll grid".

Doesn't matter. I have never believed in polls since I wrote my senator back in 1970 that I am Pro-Abortion and he wrote back thanking me for being Anti-Abortion, the campaign he was running on for re-election.

As a self-proclaimed Christian, I don't believe in abortion but I DO believe in women's rights, and if I have to chose who has the most rights, a woman or an unborn fetus, I am going to chose the woman every time.
But nuances don't make the poll stats
and stats do not reflect the truth. Bah Humbug, I say!

It's posts like this that make me want to corral every single reader/commenter of TGB and have our own "March on Washington," at the culmination of which we would all make speeches and tell the world who and what elders of the liberal persuasion think. We are all so damn smart it just makes me weep with exultation and I am not being ironic.

But we might as well face it---it really is mainly us old liberals who have the smarts and the intellect to know what's right and the guts to tell it like it is. And we're in the distinct (and nearly extinct) minority. Logic tells us that if there is an above average intelligence, then there is a far greater cohort of average and below-average intelligence. I'm afraid Fox News speaks to that very, very large group and they listen. They hear a Republican politician tell them that America is comprised not of the rich and the poor but of the rich and the soon-to-be rich and they believe it. Too many of them, like Nancy's mother, refuse to listen to any social or intellectual information that came along after they turned 16 or so. They hear that 9/11 is the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the world and they are determined to stand with those who would "protect us" from such diabolical terrorism at all costs. They hear that building a gap-toothed fence along our Southern border is the key to saving us and they support the multi-billion dollar price tag for that folly.

I could go on and on, but I'll spare you, if anyone is still reading this post. But let's face it: We're all alone out here keeping this tattered TGB flag flying above our brave little blog. We may not be in the majority and we may not be winning huge numbers of converts, but we are standing firm and we are having a damn fine conversation. -Meg

Meg, you are so right about the Fox groupies; they're stuck firmly back in '50s--or earlier! Still, I'd also like to think that there are a lot more of "us" than we know. I wish there were a way we could connect. Many of us belong to the so-called "Silent Generation" and perhaps they're staying true to the stereotype. The strident, often hateful, voices we hear on the Right must represent the other side of that coin. It's a very alarming side to me, but we of TGB can keep the exchange of information and ideas going. The Right rejects information and ideas because they often conflict with beliefs and ideology. My hope and dream is that eventually information and logic will once again triumph over pure ideology and belief systems.

The comments to this entry are closed.